BotCon 2012 Policy Update Regarding Fan Art

salmonman78

Its just like a minimall? hey hey?

Kind of. But some people might be scared to shop there because of the neighborhood. Plenty of drug dealers, strippers getting their nails done, crackheads panhandling, etc. If you blend in like I do, it's alot of fun to hang out there. And you get some pretty good deals there on stuff. No transformmers though. Maybe a few cheap KO's in the chinese dollar stores.

Hiro Prime

So, let me get this straight, because I believe that 3rd party products can and do hurt Transformers as a brand, that I'm not a Transformers fan? That I'm a corporate STOOGE? And 3rd party toys are licensed, 100% legal??? What's in the water where you are? Your sense of self entitlement is staggering and borderline insulting.

I used the term true collector as a means of pointing out the value of official toys being damaged by KOs and how fans can and are being cheated by them. If I want to purchase a Ghost Starscream Henkei figure, I want the real deal, not a KO. (and yes I can tell as I'd be a poor dealer if I couldn't.) The fact that most people can't is the problem. (not that you care apparently)

But if you want to compare collections and years spent being a TF fan, step up and consider your challenge accepted. I'll match ANY TF toy you have and not only see you the original, but I'll match you with variations, regional versions and multiple numbers in and out of package. (made up toys that never had an official toy made don't count, but if you have to count them, I'll see those toys and raise you Lucky Draws and prototypes) I've been collecting since early '85 (not buying and playing with) and I've been buy-sell-trading since '90. Oh yeah, I'm also one of only two dealers who have sold at every Botcon.

How long have you been playing this game?

They hold the mold hostage? Really? Just wow.

I like how you make assumptions about me and then try to make your stance sound noble. You actually sound like you work for a 3rd party company the way you try to justify a lower quality product. See, you are very wrong about my being in a position to judge KO quality. I have to be able to because I sell TFs and other collectibles for a living. I can't sell KO crap to my customers for the very reasons I stated in my last post.

Try to understand, if I sell a KO and a customer brings it back to me because it fell apart or worse, their kid grabbed it off of his "collectors shelf" and hurt himself with it, what do you think I'm suppose to do about it? If I don't take it back, I've lost a customer. If I do take it back, I'm stuck with the loss. Why? Because I can't get Hasbro to take it back, it's not their toy and do you really think I'd get the KO company to replace it? And why would I want it replaced if it broke or could hurt a kid?

Yes I can and have with that toy.

You do know that you're not the only collector in the world right? You can twist your point however you want but it still comes out as self serving. So you don't want to or can't afford an exclusive you want. Boo Hoo, cry me a river. Not everyone can or does. That's a part of collecting. The fact that you want it so a 3rd party can make it and make YOU happy comes at the expense of another collector who made his purchase and has every right to want to see the value of that purchase protected. The very terminology you use paints you as a very spoiled fan. As to your SG Rodimus example, it wasn't $400 at the show when it was offered. That it raised up in value so quickly shows that it's a desirable toy. You do realize that the net operates on a Capitalist system of commerce right? So, yeah, if you can't afford a real one, you're screwed.

Let me add that you, me, nobody is entitled to any toy. Owning a toy is not a right. I have to work for the money that I've used to buy my collection. Despite all the time and money I've spent, Hasbro doesn't owe me a damn thing. It's my choice to buy their product. That I choose to purchase exclusives with my hard earned money is the reason that I have them. That you don't or won't is not my or Hasbro's problem… it's yours.

Wow, again your sense of self entitlement is staggering. Hasbro and every other company manufactures in China because people like you would never buy their product for the two to three times they'd have to charge for it to produce it over here in the US. We have min-wage laws (which I suspect you are for) and Unions that force companies to pay quite a bit more to employees than China does. And LOL about your ethics from the heart comment. Congrats, you've lost your argument. I also have to ask, are you with OWS? (I think I know the answer but I'd like to see if you'll confirm it.)

In a country where people can and do sue restaurants for coffee being too hot, I don't think your warning label would go as far as you'd like it to. Do you really think just because a warning label is attached that a kid couldn't or wouldn't ever get their hands on it? That a safty label would mean that an adult collector would have to suffer a poorly made product with no recourse?

In case you may have forgotten, you are an adult (I hope anyways) collecting a bunch of toys. The "freakin kids" have been and always will be Hasbro's first priority. The fact that they toss us collectors a bone (and there have been a lot of bones over the last decade) is a nice thing. Until fans like you muck things up.

But please ignore my good advice and continue with your oh so self important ways. Maybe if enough of you guy of like mind get together and push Hasbro and Takara, they'll finally get serious with all of the 3rd party toy makers and end this crap once and for all.

OMG Hiro Prime just put on his Mitt Romney Pretender shell and challenged me to a debate !!!

First of all I don’t collect figures for value. I collect them because they represent the G1 characters I grew up with and love. I don’t consider my collection an investment and Ill probably take it with me to the grave. Most of the classics line and popular Botcon figures are no more than 5 years old. They are not civil war relics or Faberge eggs. They are lumps of plastic. So let’s stop sugarcoating them as “high end collectibles” and look at them for what they really are.

Maybe you were the guy that won an e-bay bid on a Henkei Wildrider for $500 bucks. Congratulations. All eyes were on that auction and you set the standard for what someone is willing to pay out of desperation. Now every e-bay dealer has created a 2nd account just to bid on their own items and drive the price up to $500. And if nobody out-bids the fake bidders, they cancel the auction. Heaven forbid they have a legit auction where they take the gamble like a man.

So I’m sorry, your Henkei Wildrider is not worth $500. It’s worth what somebodys willing to pay for it. Like we say in Miami, you got ganked.

You were asking how long I been in this game. I’m not at your status but my stats are as follows:

• 35 years of age, collected G1 figures from 1984-1988 and lucky enough to still have them all.

• Highly influenced by the 2007 movie to re-discover collecting, and been doing it ever since.

• Attendee of Botcon 2010, 2011, and got my 2012 reservations.

• Collector of all forms of G1 related items.

• Watched all American episodes of G1, Beast Wars, Armada, Energon, Cybertron, and TF Prime. Don’t know nothing about the Japanese series or TF Animated but willing to learn.

You really questioned my comment about Hasbro holding the molds hostage. My answer is the age old saying “use it or lose it”. How much more simple can I make it to you on my stance towards use of the molds and repaints people actually want ???

On to your customers. I’m all for customer service. But if you feel responsible when a toddler takes an “adult collectible” off of his dads “collectors shelf” and injures himself, you should retire from selling toys. It’s kind of like guns. Guns don’t kill people. People kill people with guns. Remember that. It might get you out of a lawsuit the next time “Little Jimmy” swallows a null ray.

As far as the quality of KO’s, (especially CHMS) people already know the risks. Your not going to get a lot of flack from repeat buyers. They know what theyre buying and aren’t expecting Hasbro style quality control tests. Occasionally you might sell a bad toy that breaks. It happened many times with certain items I bought from KO Toys. But since they bought in bulk, they sent me replacements like if they grew on trees. Plus I always took pictures of the problem and requested a replacement that had been inspected. And they always delivered, and let me keep the broken one for parts. Now that’s what I call a 5 star business with great customer service. Would you do all that to help your clients get what they want ???

BTW you never told me which one is the real Henkei Ghost Starscream ??? (right or left)

I’m not the only hardcore collector in the world. But I am probably one out of maybe five in my city. And Miami is pretty big. I only know 2 other hardcore collectors that live out here. And most hardcore collectors read fan sites. So we reach out to each other when we find out were from the same area. So my point is that if hardcore collectors around the country live hundreds of miles from each other, bragging rights get thrown out the window. 99.9% percent of the people who see my collection in person are not Transformer fans or collectors. They don’t know or care about “originals” or “KOs”. They just say that’s a bad ass collection and ask questions about the characters, not the companies that made the toys.

You talk a lot about capitalism. I suppose you are part of the 1% category. You want tax breaks and golden parachutes to keep your pockets fat. No wonder you support Hasbro.

I never heard of the term “intellectual property” before 3rd party companies starting making Hasbro look like s**t. Who invented that term anyway ? Every time I read somebody defending intellectual property, I cant help but think they look like this guy in person:

Damn I wanna punch him in the face !!! He has become the new face of Hasbro !!!

Oh BTW,

What in the blue hell is OWS ???

Enlighten me…

Sidecutter

You SHOULD expect them to change, though, because you never know if, say, the venue has some special rules that must be followed which you have to agree to. That might not be normal, but it isn't unexpected.

As for history of enforcement, the language in the contract which led me to start this thread and contact Fup in the first place is new to the contract. As such, there is no history about enforcement to cite if it ever came to that. Any past convention that did not contain this exact language in the dealer contract would be invalid as an example of past enforcement.

Good point. I'd forgotten (not being a vendor at a show myself in a loooooong time) about venue-specific issues.

Such as union-workers will bring your pallet to your booth location from your truck as well as the freight-shipped at the loading dock, and take it back to your truck as well as the freight-dock.
And if electricity rates/phone line for CC machines change, etc.

So glad I don't have to fool with trade shows anymore.

Rated X

My question to you is:

If you are a regular at the Botcon dealers room, why would you expect the contracts to change from year to year ???

Theres plenty of documented evidence that these policies have never been enforced at any Botcon. Possibly enough eveidence to charge Funpub with false advertising since this stuff leaked out conveniently after tickets were sold. Not to mention the credit card security breach.

You SHOULD expect them to change, though, because you never know if, say, the venue has some special rules that must be followed which you have to agree to. That might not be normal, but it isn't unexpected.

As for history of enforcement, the language in the contract which led me to start this thread and contact Fup in the first place is new to the contract. As such, there is no history about enforcement to cite if it ever came to that. Any past convention that did not contain this exact language in the dealer contract would be invalid as an example of past enforcement.

Rated X

Wow is Miami (my hometown) the only place in the country where you can do business without all the red tape ??? All this talk about contracts, IP, rights and crap. Come out here to Fleamarket USA on 79th st and 27ave and see all the bootleg stuff for sale from DVDs to Louis Vuitton handbags to Polo cologne and nobody gives a crap. It's amazing how middle America glorifies Hasbro and their rights over $12 lumps of plastic. Or am I just the only Transformer fan who didnt get a degree in law ??? Amazing…

And does LV, Ralph Lauren, Paramount Home Video, etc sponsor that flea market? I doubt it. Hasbro DOES sponsor BotCon, and is an active participant in it.

We shouldnt even be arguing. If you work for Captured Prey then you you support 3rd parties and are on my side. I bought from you guys before in Botcon 2010. You guys are good people. But Im not into all that legal crap. The bottom line is the dealers got screwed.

I agree that dealers got screwed if they were fan artists or non-toy item makers, as that "clarification' didn't come through until just over a month before show, and well after signing the contract & getting airfares (if applicable).
The no KO/3P toy item looked pretty clearcut from what I saw in the contract, as well as (gathered from ppl I personally know, and reading on this forum the past few months) discussions w/ FP since January.

SMOG

Again… no, it's because the collectors have already bought them, and not all of us buy 5 copies of the same mold. The toys are shelf-warming now because not enough kids are buying them due to the lack of a supporting media… though honestly, I see lots of kids playing with Generations figures, indifferent to whether they're movie characters or not, so it also might just be a distribution issue.

[Quote:]
Originally Posted by rework
That is a great point about Hasbro's previous collector's issues. Even fantastic toys like Masterpiece Skywarp languished on shelves with a $55 price tag. Why would they risk the cost of designing and release of a deluxe-sized at that price point?

MP Skywarp languished on shelves for the same reason the Alternators did. Complex designs and prohibitive pricing alienated it from the kids market, and poor distribution did the rest.

There are TONS of collectors out there who were desperate to get their hands on Skywarps, Starscreams, Rodimuses and Grimlocks, only to find that instead of being circulated properly, they ended up getting dumped only in specific regions, and often hit the shelf as clearance items!! (wtf?), which lead to rampant scalping. If you want to know why Hasbro's MP releases seem to fail consistently, I think it has a lot to do with how these things are solicited, purchased and distributed with regards to the retail chains. They still haven't figured out a working formula.

zmog

Agreed – I live by 2 WM, 2 Targets and a TRU…. and 90% of the time, when folks say "OMG I found X at TRU" – my local TRU doesn't get diddly.
They didn't get Perceptor; they had the Insecticons – about 3months after everyone was reporting seeing them; and seldom the MPs. Or if they did have the MPs, the suckers got bought out very quickly.

Woodbridge isn't super small, so we tend to get a lot of stuff. But Transformers, I have noticed, we're one of the last folks to get things. In fact, a board member here has often been kind enough to pick up TFs for me in the past, and he lives less than an hour away from me, but the distribution pattern by him is completely different than for any of my local TF-carrying stores. And we're in the same state & technically in the same geographic area (northern VA).

About the only thing my local TRU has carried, "on time" was the TF Prime figs this past Xmas – and I am now kicking myself that I didn't pick them up for myself vs getting the other toys my son actually wanted ^_^

When you go to the HTS, within the first week of a toy being released – but not in your local area, to see "Out of Stock"…. yeah. That's not languishing. But that's if it is even carried at HTS, or TRU.com, etc. Some MPs & re-issues I've been waiting for in the past few years don't seem to make on there, only in stores- or they are immediately sold out as fast as they pop on.

llamatron

Not ego but safety – can't have kiddies or people buying 3rd party stuff thinking it's from Hasbro and then choking on it.

I disagree.

Mark it *clearly* both online, and on the box, that this is a "adult collectible", as per (I believe) the BotCon sets, not recommended for ages under 12.

Cuz frankly, if an adult buys a $50+ "adult collectible" w/ a age 12+ due to small parts choking harzard for their 5 y/o, I don't have a lot of sympathy – kinda like when parents go "OMG – there's titties & blood in that game!!! Did he just drop a F-bomb???" – on a T or M-rated video game, being played by their 10 year old, that the parent bought for their kid (And yes, I am a parent, and no, my kid doesn't see every PG13 movie or play a lot of T-rated games)

My son loves to watch LOTR, and loves TFs – he doesn't get to watch "Game of Thrones" with me, and he understands that just cuz Lennox & Epps drop "Shits" & "Dammits", he doesn't get to as well.

I am tired of idiot parents that want the government and manufacturers to do parenting for them. Give us the tools (recommended ages, and WHY it got that rating/rec), then let me be a parent.
V-Chip all the way, vs auto-cancelling shows that might be "questionable for young viewers".

Rated X

Legally, your 100% percent right. But in the real world, who re-reads a contract every year ??? I was referring to people who attend every year, not newbies. Do you read the back of every Red Bull can you drink to see if new chemicals have been added since the last one you drank ???

Umm, If I'm plunking down $200+ to sell something, where a contract is required rather than just "you agree to use X space for Y cost during dates A-B", you bet I'm reading each time I sign it.

I dunno about you, but if my signature is going on a paper, I am going to at least scan it, and if I could be considered liable for something I am reading it.
It's not like the dealer-table contract is more than 5 pages long.

Especially if I'm selling unofficial stuff, at an officially sanctioned & supported show vs a true 100% grassroot fan-show.

Rated X

Legally, your 100% percent right. But in the real world, who re-reads a contract every year ??? I was referring to people who attend every year, not newbies. Do you read the back of every Red Bull can you drink to see if new chemicals have been added since the last one you drank ???

In the real world, any business owner who wants to stay in business and stay the owner of that business reads *every damn thing they sign* that has a contract attached. Not doing so is a beautiful way to lose money, lose your product or ideas, lose your retail space, or even lose the entire business.

And as others have pointed out, something consumed daily is not the same, nor nearly as important, as the once-a-year dealer contract would be. A better analogy would be whether you read the contracts when changing health or car insurance providers. If you're not, you're just begging to have problems.

StayingInTheBox

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to question your buying habits or your loyalties; I wanna make that clear man. The idea of a "true fan" existing to me is ridiculous in general. IMO, there's no such thing as a "true fan." We're fans. If you're buying KOs or hanging a picture of Aaron Archer on your wall (creepy … ) it's all good in my mind.

If you're a Hasbro loyalist that doesn't mean you're praising their stock holders or management. The same is said for those that are 3rd party loyalists. Hopefully I cleared my comments up a bit.

The whole "True Fan" thing started because I was defending my stance against this quote from Hiro Prime:

"It never ceases to amaze me that collectors like you call yourselves fans. Do you really think that mean old Hasbro ought to just let 3rd party companies make whatever they want?"

Im not sure why you decided to jump in and throw him a life jacket. He clearly accused me of being a fake fan for not supporting hasbro's interests first.

StayingInTheBox

It's ridiculous when we start throwing out the "true fan" garbage. I'm trying to understand you man, but it's becoming very difficult.

I would define a "true Transformers fan" as a person who is LOYAL to the actual Transformers characters, not the humans that create them. It doesnt matter who's versions of "The Transformers" I buy, as long as Im buying something to show my passion for the characters. Maybe I buy Hasbro versions. Maybe I buy 3rd party versions. Maybe I make them myself with clay and toothpicks. I live for the characters. Not their creators, investors, stock holders, and copyright owners. Those people come and go but the characters themselves are eternal.

Thats where my loyalty lies. You go hang a picture of some Hasbro CEO on your wall and glorify him. Im gonna hang up Megatron on my wall and glorify him.