Courtesy of cartoonbrew.com we have a very interesting reading to share for you. On this article Cartoon Brew asked ILM visual effects supervisor Jason Smith and co-animation supervisor Rick O’Connor to share some of their experience on how to work the special effects with transforming robots.
The article covers several tricks they used from the Transformers 2007 film to the recent Bumblebee movie as well as some revealing comments on all the creative process to bring to live our beloved robots. You can read the full article here and then you can share your impressions on the 2005 Boards!
Galvatross
A very respectful and reasonable response I must say! And no, I never got a "true fan" aura about any of your posts here, so you're good. There's more than one way of looking at any piece of fiction, Transformers or otherwise.
So just a few responses and thoughts of mine…
Well, maybe I'm in the minority, but I actually enjoy the idea that Transformers have appeared in Earth's past. Not in every instance, but in many.
First and, personally speaking, foremost, is that I have always been fascinated by the geologic past, prehistory, history, and extinctions. I love paleontology, geology, archaeology, and historical mysteries. I don't subscribe to "Ancient Astronaut" theories, but I still love watching Ancient Aliens and love the idea of it being present in fiction.
Humans in recent centuries did not always know about dinosaurs and other extinct groups of organisms. We didn't always know about ancient civilizations like Urartu or the Harappan civilization of the Indus Valley, and it wasn't until the Rosetta Stone was discovered that archaeologists could decipher ancient Egyptian. It was only a couple decades ago where feathered non-avian dinosaurs were definitely proven to exist, and only this last decade that the colors of dinosaurs have been figured out in special cases. Denisovans, who are only known from fragments of bone and a few teeth and the genetic material within, were only discovered this decade. Homo floresiensis, the "Hobbit" of Indonesia, was only described last decade. More ancient humans and animals remain undiscovered. There are ancient languages whose alphabets are still undecipherable, and some who have been lost to time entirely. There are ruins that still haven't been discovered, and fossils in the ground that have yet to reveal lost species and ancient ecosystems. Humans are constantly learning about their origins and their planet and their universe. That the Transformers also are constantly discovering their history even in the present day also makes sense.
And there's a huge precedence for it in the Transformers brand. Beast Wars on ancient Earth. The Ark crashing millions of years ago. Etcetera.
Not to mention, in the original cartoon, the living Autobots don't encounter the Quintessons until 2005. They don't learn that the Quints were their creators until Rodimus ventures into the Matrix. So even in the source material itself, there was plenty of things the Autobots didn't know about their own past. In that sense, the movies greatly reflect the source material.
In the case of the movies, the robots who came to ancient Earth weren't even the same robots that came to Earth in modern times. It would have been one thing if Optimus Prime and Megatron and Bumblebee and Starscream were on Earth with dinosaurs. THAT would have been stupid. It's quite another when you have the Dynasty of Primes in the Pleistocene and Creators visiting the Earth at the end of the Cretaceous. And in the case of the latter, they aren't even Transformers, but a different race of aliens entirely, and Earth was merely one of thousands of planets they visited.
Plus, humans ourselves have visited distant lands in the distant past while leaving little to no evidence. Columbus and Leif Ericson are famous for visiting the New World, but there's evidence of other cross-Atlantic and cross-Pacific voyages. Evidence of chickens and sweet potatoes in South America indicates that the Polynesians at some point made it across before Columbus. There are likewise ancient Egyptian mummies with cocaine, which originates form the New World. So if humans as maritime explorers have traveled between the Americas and Old World in expeditions that have since been forgotten, I don't see why different alien races, factions, and individuals capable of interstellar flight couldn't also have visited our planet. Since the Transformers and Creators are interstellar voyagers, it makes sense there would have been some ancient travel to many different planets.
Now the Unicron thing I'm not too fond of, because we go from Earth being merely one of thousands of worlds bombed by the Creators to seemingly being one of two planets in the universe that matter again.
But overall, ancient Primes being in prehistoric Egypt and the Creators turning the dinosaurs into metal is right down my ally.
Keep in mind I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a different point of view so much as explaining mine. Like I said, there's more than one way of looking at things.
Well, you just gave Alice as an example, and Alice is a Pretender who can mimic the appearance and texture of human skin, hair, and soft tissues as well as human-made fabric. Furthermore, Transformers with human vehicle alternate modes need to replicate the appearance of rubber, glass, and often leather or other soft material.
Alice is still metallic; her appearance and textures merely mimic those of human beings.
Likewise, the tires of a Transformer merely mimic the appearance and texture of rubber. They still are actually made of metal, which actually explains how the robots, Ironhide in DotM as an example, can be seen getting blasted by explosions and weaponry and still drive without getting flat tires. Hence another example of why I think Transformium actually solves many problems!
And the thing, is none of the Transformers we see are programmed to transform into plastic toys, nor do any of them scan plastic toys. You see what I mean? I'm sure a small Cybertronian could have scanned a MLP doll, mimicked the plastic appearance of a MLP doll, and transformed into that if they really wanted to, just like Alice was able to transform into a human being that looked just like a female human.
Well, to be fair we don't see Galvatron get scratched to begin with. Healing implies that someone or something was damaged enough to begin with to require healing. I'd say if Galvatron's body had huge chunks of metal blown out of it, or he had his metal "brains" blown out, and he then broke up into cubes to transform into a truck, and then transforms into a robot and appears as if nothing happened, then that would have been re-healing. But we don't see that. Galvatron withstands the explosion and transforms in order to pursue Optimus.
Well, from what we see visually, I never saw Bumblebee's unexplained new ability in TLK as being related to the cube transformations. If anything, I saw it as being much more similar to Headmasters, where the heads detach but still function. Except Bumblebee's parts don't transform into smaller robots (That would be totally insane if they all did though), and it's all of Bee's body parts that can function while being detached and not just the head. Since Cogman is also mentioned as being a Headmaster, but we never see him do that, I wonder if that was something originally meant to tie into that?
Although I can totally see where you're coming from, too.
Anyway, I'm glad we can have areas of agreement, while also having different perspectives.
Smasher
Before I take on your points I want to say that I don't think your opinion means you're stupid or something less than a "true fan".
That may not make sense in the context of this discussion, but on another part of the internet at this very moment I'm engaged in a similar discussion of another SciFi property and some people are saying that those with different opinions "don't understand the complex themes" or are not "true fans".
I just want to make sure that I do not come across that way.
Not now. Not ever.
I have a lot of respect for you linking things together and coming up with plausible explanations.
When I was younger my imagination constantly pieced together things that didn't quite fit in comics, cartoons, and sometimes movies.
That makes sense.
I think this is among the biggest flaws in Bay's version of the franchise.
There was always some major historical era in Earth's history (or in AoE's case, prehistory) in which the Transformers are involved -and yet none of the main cast of Transformers is ever aware of it.
I thought it was quite interesting to find out in the first movie that Megatron and the Allspark had been on Earth for over a century, but five films of "Transformers were here for [insert historical context] and no one knew" is four films too many.
Again, that makes sense.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Transformers seem to turn into something remotely metal -something that's a machine.
If the floating Transformium in the KSI labs can turn into plastic, metal, and a fuzzy plush toy why can't the Transformers?
Even Alice seemed to be a robot hidden in a machine-like flesh disguise.
The flesh turned into compartments and revealed the robot parts beneath.
The Transformium turns into dust as plastic and reforms as metal.
Stop making sense.
I think this is the problem with Bay's storytelling.
Everything and anything is implied.
Things are explicitly stated -then redacted.
The first time we see Galvatron come online he is sort of materializing as cubes constructing a truck.
Then Bumblbee shoots him and appears to score a direct hit.
Galvatron disassembles into cubes, flies past Bee, and reassembles without a scratch.
A better director might not have made that confusing.
I'm not the only one who thought Galvatron could heal.
Spot on.
But did we see it again?
Bumblebee didn't turn into cubes, but he did get blown and later ripped apart and he just reformed.
He actually seemed immortal in The Last Knight.
While it was never even discussed in the movie, for me, it supported my theory that the KSI bots could heal.
It would have been awesome. And TLK even had Unicron in it.
Definitely a missed opportunity.
Galvatross
Well, to address your points…
First, Transformium isn't really any worse than Unobtanium as a name. It's really not any worse than most of the names for the Transformers themselves.
Second, if you watch the fourth movie, Joshua Joyce mentions how Transformium HAD been previously discovered, but it's only in recent years with Transformer incursions in modern times when they realized it was what Cybertronians were made of. Plus, it was through the work of the imprisoned Brains that information was downloaded from the likes of Megatron, Sentinel, and perhaps other dead Decepticons, and Megatron himself fed the humans the science they needed to build their own Transformers, so he would have a new body and new troops. Besides, the Autobots themselves didn't seem to know much of their ancient history and origins; they didn't know about where the Allspark came, nor about the Fallen until RotF, nor about the existence of the Creators it seems until AFTER Lockdown captured Prime.
Consequently, I wouldn't expect the Autobots to teach humans all about Transformium even if they did know about it, especially given, even as allies with the US military in RotF, Optimus wouldn't share Cybertronian technology with the humans, because he thought it would do great harm. Well, what happens when KSI wants to build their own robots, and Megatron feeds KSI the information on how to make their own Transformers? Exactly.
Third, Transformers transform into what they are programmed to transform into OR whatever alt mode they happen to scan. We have seen Transformers capable of transforming into watches, stereos, human females, and so on. The KSI Decepticons were programmed to transform into vehicles and NOT My Little Pony dolls or headphones. They wouldn't transform into things they weren't programmed to transform into.
Fourth, the first time we see the KSI Transformium transformations is with Galvatron during his pursuit of Prime and the Autobots, and Galvatron is a sentient, sapient being. Galvatron is shown to use the transformations intelligently, because he is intelligent. On the other hand, all KSI transformations we see used in Hong Kong are the other prototypes, who are not sentient and sapient. Consequently, I wouldn't expect them to be as skillful as Galvatron is at using the cube transformations.
Furthermore, nowhere is it implied, either visually or in an expository manner, that the KSI Transformers can heal any more than regular Cybertronians. It's true Galvatron uses his transformation to break up as Bumblebee attacks him, but nowhere is it implied that they heal themselves in such a manner. That's just how they transform. On the contrary, a KSI Transformers who has its "brain" circuitry blown out is no different than blowing out the circuitry of a non-Transformium robot: Non-functional. They're still machines.
Finally, the KSI Decepticons besides Galvatron not being up to par with normal Cybertronians was actually the point, because the humans in their hubris merely thought they were creating superior robots, when in the grand scheme of things they were cheap knock offs. And I don't think the humans would be able to replicate the complex mechanical transformations of Bayverse Cybertronians in a few short years, therefore the cube transformations actually make sense. Nobody is saying it's real world realistic, but it absolutely follows some logic and even solves many problems with scanning, alt modes, and transformations in-universe.
So yeah, I think Transformium in Age of Extinction was fine. My biggest criticism is that we don't see more of it The Last Knight, as I would have loved to have seen Galvatron use his abilities one more time.
Personally, since Galvatron has often been a Herald of Unicron, and Unicron represents chaos, I would love it if some future versions of Galvatron, Cyclonus, Scourge, etc. likewise had chaotic transformations where they break up in a manner similar to the KSI Decepticons. Except instead of metal cubes, I'd give them a more Earthy and infernal transformation scheme given Unicron's planetary nature. Something like that could be really awesome!
Smasher
I don't have a problem with the concept behind Transformium, but the way the idea was executed in AoE was terrible.
First the name, Transformium, is terrible. I previously thought Unobtanium was the worst named Macguffin.
Second, Transformium was just "discovered" in the fourth movie?
There were years worth of exposure to Transformers by that point, not to mention outright cooperation between the humans and the Autobots.
Third, it's presented as the magic component of Transformers technology but Transformium itself doesn't behave like the Transformers do.
Instead of it being presented as a way for the metal of the Transformers to split, bend, recombine, shrink and expand, Transformium in the lab just turns into anything.
Why can't Transformers float in the air and turn into plastic headphones, a Glock, and a plush My Little Pony?
Transformium can? The Transformers are made out of Transformium so why can't they?
Finally, the movie can't figure out how being made directly from Transformium affects Transformers.
The first time we encounter the KSI Transformium Decepticons they seem immortal.
Every time they take damage the damaged parts turn into cubes and repair themselves.
After that they still transform by turning into cubes, but they don't heal.
In fact, they seem even weaker. Most of them are dispatched by a single shot.
Ra88
I don't mind that they cheat in this movie. They've always cheated in these. I more so wish they would have them be more believable again. I love Bumblebee's design, but when it comes down to it, it's the same level of bullshit as the AoE and TLK transformations. Same with Dropkick and Shatter. The only genuinely good one was Blitzwing, where you can actually tell where everything goes. His wings even do the MP Seeker flip!
marktron
because #TeHaceFaltaVerMásMecatrónica
Galvatross
Never be afraid of a differing opinion my fellow fan!
Dinobot Snarl
I'm scared.
Galvatross
I can understand Transformium not being someone's thing, but I don't get the absolute hatred for Transformium. I genuinely think it's awesome and one of the best ideas in the history of the brand, as it actually solves some problems with the very nature of Transformers, transformations, and alternate modes.
Transformium is a GREAT concept.
More Transformium and cube transformations, please! Let the KSI cube transformations of Transformers 4 fill this fandom with their programmable, metallic love.
Prime Aspect
I disagree. The transformations in the first 3 movies were pretty cool and cheated a lot less than those in 4-5 or BB. I still feel that the Bay designs of the first 3 were much more "realistic" as to what giant alien robots would look like, increasing amounts of robot facial hair aside…
But Transformium was just a cheap budget hack.
justframbo
(sorry, just joined.. I don't know how the quoting thing works >:/ )
justframbo
Ok… looking frame-by-frame on some of the transformations… some of the parts just float..
Hm… come to think of it, my main problem with these transformations is that they're too fluid. If you compare these with, say, the 2007 set, a thing you'll notice is that everything feels a bit more rigid – parts or even entire segments wobble with the main structures, bounce back slightly, and generally just don't move smoothly. (Granted, I think I heard that BB was on a smaller budget… was it?)
Moy
That's not his expertise. That belongs to the animators innovation.
Spaceman1251
Yeah, I know what you’re saying. It’s just, you would think a stop
motion expert would’ve revolutionized the transformations, being that they’re a stop motion expert. That’s why I said “supposed.”
Smasher
The first Bay movie at least focused on the transformations. It was nice to see some of the ways they transformed. I remember Prime transforming on the highway at full speed, tearing up the pavement.
Starscream's transforming and vaulting onto the dam was pretty cool, too.
Then the fact that they could transform seemed to just be used to go from one place to another, they would either transform off screen (mostly) or they would be in the background.
And I agree, the Transformium changes were just awful.
I remember being in the theater saying aloud "Why?"
Travis Knight is not supposed to be "some kinda stop motion expert".
He worked on four stop motion films prior to Bumblebee.
That literally qualifies him as a stop motion expert.
And I'm not denying that there are aspects of Bumblebee's transformation that "cheat".
But there is no "black hole sucking in everything for Bee".
He transforms on screen several times while the camera is focused on him.
I loved it.
I'll take this technique over the Bay transformations where the vehicles explode into a million connected fragments that somehow form an overly complex robot design that is instantly recognizable as a Bay Transformer but not really identifiable from any other Bay Transformer, transformations where the vehicle turns into cubes that fly into the air and then turn into a robot, or transformations that happen off camera.
Spaceman1251
I figured since Travis Knight is supposed to be some kinda stop motion expert, that he would've at least studied stop motion videos of Transformers toys transforming to give us a better style of transformation sequences, instead of the black hole sucking in everything for Bee that we got.
Bumblethumper
It's not that there's a lack of complexity to the transformations, they are far from one-step changers. It's that they think the complexity of parts spinning around is enough to distract us from some rather blatant mass-shifting and parts that disappear once they are off screen, obscured from camera, out of sight. Transforming should be a mechanical rearranging of component parts, not a magic power.
It takes creativity, it takes skill, it's not easy, but there's enough examples to show it's doable and the end result will be that much more satisfying.
I'd like to see some 3rd parties tackle Bumblebee if Hasbro won't redo their figures. The MP leaves too much room for improvement.
imranbecks
I was motivated by this article to do a stop motion transformation of my Studio Series Bumblebee
ObakaChanTachi
??? I get that you’re trying to make a point but why in spanish???
What the hell is even going on with this thread
megatroptimus
Bumblebee had some of the best transformation scenes imo. All clear and in your face. Absolute worst were that transformium crap. An insult to the franchise.