io9 have recently had the opportunity to talk to Transformers More than Meets the Eye writer James Roberts about the series reaching its 50th issue. James is guarded about spoilers in the interview, but does relate some interesting information about the process in creating the issue – such as how both More than Meets the Eye 50 and Transformers 50 each are intended as a starting point for new readers (hence why the issue is “Part 1” of The Dying of Light, rather than its conclusion, which was an idea once in the running).
It is also mentioned that issue 50 will feature a backup strip, titled “No Guns, No Swords, No Briefcases” set entirely in Swerve’s bar which celebrates all 50 issues, and it is also mentioned that James Roberts is currently working on the 75th issue for the series. Assuming things do not change and Mr Roberts gets to continue with the series (and we all hope that he does), that means a whole two years of stories are planned out ready for us to enjoy – and given how James likes to work in 20-25 issue seasons, that is essentially the entire third season of More than Meets the Eye right there.
Check out the full interview on io9 by clicking here, and be sure to check out More than Meets the Eye 50 in comic stores today!
Murasame
Well… it's like that. Transformers is where it is, because of change and always generating new fans through new media. But G1 laid the foundation that it is so popular these days. EVERYONE loved G1 (slightly exaggerated), and EVERYONE knew Transformers when G1 was around. Later not so much anymore. So… the newer fans and the overall general population who grew up in the 80s or who were at least teens, made it what it is right now. If Transformers would have started in the 2000s it would NEVER become what it is right now. You guys always forget that there are outside the fandom still much more people who still like G1 from their childhood, than there are newer fans with each generation. Sure… the time will come that these casual G1 fans and hardcore G1 fans will fade away… But they put together the foundation for what Hasbro could achieve later.
But also the later fans matter, as it is a combination of both things. If the alterations and re-inventions did not happen, Transformers probably died and if G1 would not have been popular in the 80s, we would not be here, where we are.
If you guys take it as an insult that G1 was and is so important, than so be it.
That's like saying Star Trek was lucky because of TOS. Without TOS there would not have been TNG. And while I like every other iteration more than TOS, it was absolutely necessary that TOS had such a cult following.
Same with Transformers.
It's the complete package of G1 that was important.
Also I agree with SMOG, he's right.
The later generations of Transformers never had such a big audience and will never ever have such a big audience again. Except for the movies. Here you have also the effect of all the guys who still know Transformers from their childhood, who watch these movies. Transformers is not only us fans. It's a cultural phenomenon.
SMOG
The inceptional popularity of Transformers is owed to A) great toys, and B) an exceptionally well-developed fiction out-of-the-gate. And while we've seen novelty since then, arguably it's NOT the new characters and new directions that have defined it. For 30-odd years, the Transformers brand has been 90% based on revisions of the same formula, the same basic premise, and the same basic characters. Any property needs novelty. Obviously new characters and new toys are part of that. But what are those new toys and new characters based on? They are based on the model laid out by G1. The DNA of Transformers is pretty pure in that respect.
I think that some of the subsequent lines of Transformers have been good, and have added to that momentum, but as much as later fans may resent G1 for its recurrent emphasis, I really don't think that anybody can objectively argue with its incredibly important role in sustaining the fiction. The fact of the matter is that the G1 generation is still here in the fandom, and have been a key presence in keeping the ball rolling. Let's not forget that those G1 folks were there for Beast Wars, Armada, and the rest as well. We were watching the shows, buying the toys, promoting the brand, etc…
Would Transformers have gotten to where it is now purely on the strength of Beast Wars or Armada? Maybe? But I doubt it. I think that whatever quality we ascribe to the later aspects of Transformers, there is a foundation and a precedent that all of that is built upon. What happened in 1984 is inarguably what has lead to the popularity of the brand today (though obviously some good stewardship and creative decisions along the way have contributed).
You seem to be making the point that G1 was the ancestor, and we've now evolved beyond that. Except we haven't. G1 is still the touchstone that each new permutation of Transformers invokes, the well that the fiction always goes back to. When you look at the toys on the shelves, the iconography in the TV shows, the subjects of the comics, and the general shape of the fandom, you see G1… either in subtle echoes, or in bold, blatant strokes. It's not a grammaphone. It's not an old-timey bicycle. It is the face of Transformers that barely changed in 30 years.
So my original point stands. Hasbro gets the credit for scouting some great Japanese toys and jumping on the licensing. They get credit for commissioning professional comics writers to develop their fictions for Transformers and GIJoe, and giving them enough room to flex their creative muscles a little bit more than what was typical for toy fictions.
Obviously, they also get credit for smart decisions that followed. But let's also remember where things started. I've never been one to totally shit on later generations of Transformers… but I also think it's extremely disingenuous when later fans to try to disavow G1's ongoing importance.
Everything you just mentioned there has "G1" written on its bones, and Budiansky in its marrow. Root causes, friend… root causes.
Ha! Yeah, I would say that they're at their best when they are making great toys, so we buy them without needing to be tricked… and when they farm out their property to talented people, and then let those talented people do their thing without jumping in too much.
Perhaps they are at their worst when they fail at both of these things.
zmog
SPLIT LIP
I agree with everything you said (especially Dark Cybertron sucking eggs) except this. Transformers' popularity is not owed to rebranded Daiclone/Microman figures, it is owed to it's longevity and ability to reinvent and create new characters and toys. If that were truely the case Transformers would have stopped selling the very instant newly designed toys emerged, and there would be zero fans outside of the initial two seasons of G1. I wouldn't be a Transformers fan if that were true, same as many others.
Just because a popular thing exists because of something doesn't mean that something is the high point of it's popularity. Otherwise cars would all have stone wheels and we'd all be tweeting on rotary phones. No, the truth is that we have G1, G2, BW, MW, BM, RID, Armada, Energon, Cybertron, Animated, The Movies, Prime, the other RID and every comic and toy in between to thank for Transformer's popularity, because it's popular with far, far too many people to credit to a single aspect.
First isn't always best, and it's pretty damn insulting to the rest of the franchise and the fans of it to assume there's a singular point of focus for popularity. Starting something and maintaining it are two seperate achievements. If it sounds like I just said the same thing five times, it's because it begs repeating. G1 is held on a pedastel for getting lucky, while the rest of the brand's 30 years that got us this far go largely unacknowledged.
As for your point overall: as said I totally agree. Wether or not it's in Hasbro's legal right we don't have to like everything they do. I like most of what they do, but Transformers is at its best when it's tricking us into buying toys, not making it the focal point of stories.
SMOG
Distribution models, maybe. But I don't think that focusing on old fans got them to 'this sorry state'. I think you'll have to be a lot more specific about how that happened, and what "this sorry state" actually is, rather than making a blanket statement.
My personal experience IS seeing practice in action, obviously… if on a very small scale. But it's not just that… you also hear that story literally all the time on the boards here. People are taking up MTMTE who have never read a TF comic before… or even a comic, period. The success of MTMTE seems to be very much based on people who were not already following IDW, and who jumped onboard, past convolutions and character histories be damned.
I suspect that says more about not only the rigid distribution models, but also the outdated evaluative measures. I don't believe those numbers factor in digital sales or trade paperbacks, which are likely hefty portions of MTMTE's market right now.
I think that Hasbro's 'meddling' has actually changed the direction of entire plotlines, and reduced one of the ongoing titles at times to the role of an advertising ticker. I place some of the blame for Dark Cybertron and Combiner Wars on Hasbro. And every time I'm reading a story that I get yanked out of because of a blatant bit of promotional mush, that devalues the experience.
We can also hand some blame to IDW… clearly, if they were better writers, they might be able to accommodate Hasbro's requests in more organic fashion, and integrate these things into the stories in more intuitive ways. So yeah… sometimes it's badly done on a couple of levels. And there's no guarantee that IDW's material would all be gold, even if left to its own devices. And of course comic companies also make bad creative decisions for commercial reasons… and they should receive criticism for that as well.
But at the moment, the topic is specifically oriented to the influence Hasbro wields over the comics, and the forms that takes (though arguably, this wasn't necessarily the topic we started with).
Can't tell if being serious.
So, because the Matrix is already a magic doohickey with vaguely defined powers, dumping even more preposterous and unprecedented devices into the story can't possibly worsen things. Since weak characters exist, adding more can't hurt. Oh, and even though we were heading towards a backstory for Cybertron, having a whole other backstory slammed down on top of that can ONLY make things richer, and can't possibly detract from the reader experience.
Seriously, dude. The logics you apply here seem to be treating fiction as if there is NO craft involved at all. Why are you so hell-bent on mounting such an absurd defense of Hasbro here? Are you having a bad week? Not getting enough sleep? Job stress?
Dark Cybertron sucked. Combiner Wars was mostly a lot of noise but with nothing much happening. After being judicious with Combiners for years in IDW, it felt pretty idiotic to suddenly introduce them with such abandon.
On the other hand… admittedly, Barber's introduction of Superion was not exactly brilliant, so nobody's making the case that IDW is infallible. But I'd prefer to see them fail on their own, so I can berate them appropriately, rather than having to parcel out my criticism to allow for Hasbro's creative interference as well.
It sucked in the Marvel days… but between 2001-2012, it was pretty good on that front. So it's not like there's no precedent for a largely uncompromised TF comic series.
Strawman argument detected. Disallowed.
1) The comics are already advertising Hasbro's properties. I do not believe that such heavy-handed product placement helps them in most cases.
2) Irrelevant. What Hasbro is "free to do" has no bearing on quality.
This point gains no traction with me at all. Nobody is arguing about what Hasbro is within their rights to do. Hasbro doesn't need to be defended either. You seem to be willfully confusing what is 'good business' or 'within Hasbro's rights', with what is 'good'. And coming from you, that's a surprise to me. Oh well.
For over a decade, Hasbro has had almost ZERO impact on TF comics. They simply didn't dirty their hands with it. Now that we're getting some of the best TF comics seen in the franchise history, Hasbro is mucking around with it, and hurting the product with their attempts to force blatant marketing into the material.
I have NO care whatsoever for who owns Transformers, or what their legal rights are. I only care about whether the product – the product of which I am a consumer – is good. So I have every right to criticize the decisions Hasbro makes if it hurts the stories in obvious ways. Hasbro needs to stick to their wheelhouse making toys, and let other professionals do what they do best.
Especially when one considers that they really do owe the popularity of this franchise to a bunch of toy designs they licensed from Japanese toy companies, and to a comic book writer they handed the property to for development (who, in my opinion, probably performed way above his pay grade).
Uh, no. That's kind of an absurd thing to say, and seems to be implying we should prostrate ourselves and give thanks for the boundless munificence of Hasbro's good grace, simply for allowing the comics to exist at all. Come on, man. When did you become such a corporate apologist?
The fact is, Hasbro was asking very little of the comics for a very long time. From their point of view, they were making a few extra bucks off the licensing of the property… and meanwhile, Hasbro kept IDW and DW pretty much at arm's length from everything else they were doing. It was not particularly important to their operation… and yet the comics persisted, because why not?
What we're seeing lately is an attempt to diversify and synergize Hasbro's property, which is similar to what Marvel is doing. They're realizing that their traditional wares and markets are changing, and instead they're trying to convert their properties into a cross-media platform so it can survive the imminent collapse of the child-based toy market, and expand into more lucrative markets (this is also why Hasbro has been lavishing attention on the G1 generation lately). This is fine… if you do it well.
However, if the result is that you produce crap because you don't know what's actually good in the first place, then I think it's entirely valid to criticize them for that. Which is what we're doing.
And Dark Cybertron sucked hard.
Who would stop to ponder such a simplistic, arbitrary, and meaningless equation?
You should know by now that the IDW authors don't get any special exaltation in this forum. This isn't a what-if scenario. We have had TF comics for about 15 years… 3 of those years have evinced clear, tawdry, compromising corporate interference. People who read the comics don't see that as a necessary evil, because it's not necessary.
Your argument seems to be entirely premised on:
A) …unmitigated exercise of business practice not only supersedes, but negates, any legitimacy of possible claims individual consumers might have regarding the quality of the product (which apparently requires another individual consumer, acting as a 'good corporate citizen' to champion Hasbro's business practices), and…
B) …if you are dependant on an corporate/business entity for a product they produce (whether as an employee or consumer), you are not in any way allowed to have opinions or complaints about how that business is run, how it handles its properties, or how it treats its employees, "because you should be thankful for whatever you get, you ingrates."
Which is a pretty fucked-up, Smithian capitalist, might-makes-right, corporate-feudalist outlook, that demands we treat Hasbro like they're doing us a grand favour, for allowing us the honour of buying their product (so we'll shut up and we'll like it).
I dunno man. The more you dig yourself in on this topic, the worse it looks.
zmog
Susha
and that is where we TOTALLY disagree. You see atm I'm losing interest in the comics, and am gaining interest for legend scale toys. Strictly legends scale. In other words, I feel more dedicated to DX9 and IRONFACTORY than to Hasbro (who releases 4 new legend scale figures a year <half of which i dont want>).
<in fact i used to use seibertron.com more once but moved here specifically becos of the 3rd party threads and news>
I really wouldn't care that a comic book is or isn't being made if it isn't Roberts writing it (or Roche).
the franchise fidelity you so take for granted has nothing to do with my passion for transformers. Besides, I am much fonder of Bob Budiansky and Floro Dery and Sunbow than I am of Hasbro who didn't even design the originals toys (let alone stories).
I'm sure we all have our very personal thing when it comes to tf (or sw, or wahtever), but wanting to appreciative narrative choices forced by marketing isn't by default why we like it. Sure marketing CAN turn out great narrative ('what if optimus prime hadn't died') but it usually doesn't. arguing that it is not only to be expected but appreciated is taking it a bit far.. imo
Haywired
Unlikely. Complains are a fairly unreasonable demands that HasTak should stay away from their own merchandise and not have any rights to make even the slightest suggestions.
That's quite divorced from balance…
Rodimus Prime
Complainers should, I agree. However, you are constantly exaggerating their point to make your reaction seem reasonable. Susha seems to simply want to strike a balance, from their posts.
Haywired
People who make toys OWN this franchise and every single character in it. Not writers, not illustrators.
Sometimes their decisions are bad, sometimes are neutral and sometimes they even work, in regards to fiction, but that's the least important thing.
What is important, it is their property. An owner has all rights to manage their property as they see fit.
Licencing the franchise to IDW also was Hasbro decision. Giving the publisher more income because of pack-in comics it is also Hasbro decision.
And if they did not need comic books anymore, they could pull the plug. But they did not.
Those books do exist only because of HasTak decision.
And it counts how? Why complainers can't engage others positively? Double standards much?
Isn't it just a complaint about exalted writers badly treaten by the evil corporation except they have their jobs only because of a franchise produced by this evil corporation? If not for Hasbro needs and approval, NO comic book would be produced at all. Something to think about, isn't it?
Rodimus Prime
This may come as a shock, but people are allowed to dislike things you enjoy, and enjoy things you dislike. Why not try and engage others positively?
Susha
emhh. Honestly, what brought me back to the franchise (as an adult) was Nick Roche and Roberts for quality writing and drawing. I'm not buying the fanboy thing. I don't have to like it at all costs.
Susha
but that the whole point isn't it. Casual readers will loose interest when advertisment months is over.. If you alraedy have a product marketed for them (movies) and products targeted for children (Rid) why mingle with the original target audience and their product of reference.
As a kid reading what the older kids read was so much cooler. If you want a casual read anything will do anyways..
The truth is that marketing people have this tendency to translate everything into what is important to them (money).
I as a customer (while i might care that a company that produces something I like will keep producing it, lets say nutella) am not really concerned about nutellas profits (or non profits).
Trying to tell my that your product is crap cos your trying to get more money out of it is really not going to help selling that product to me.
Also, according to your reasoning, lets say we were to produce a movie on Dante's Purgatory (a sequel to the first Dante's Inferno) and the producer wanted you to thinnen down the plot. Would you remove plot lines deriving from the first movie? Well thank GOD Dante Alighieri didn't have someone like so telling him how to write his masterpiece.
Apparently Michelangelo Bonaroti did have this kind of pressure when designing the tomb the pope commissioned him. Apparently the Pope was constantly dissatisfied with the artists designs, and wanted something more pompous it is said. Well Bonaroti wouldn't have it. He just kept presenting designs the pope disliked until the pope died and then he presented the one he liked.
all were saying is writers should write stories and people who sell toys shouldn't overeach their bounds (and capacities – last i checked story telling isn't an essential skill)
Haywired
And how terrible they are! A new character, a new comic series, and artifact that isn't really any more nonsensical than Matrix, and more things for backstory of Cybertron.
Truly, truly outrageous!
Evil Hasbro's runing everything forever!
…
I don't mind any of them perhaps save for the Combiner Wars. Except Combiner Wars suffered more from poor pacing and being, well, kinda boring, than anything else. It could be handled better.
Seriously, the comic and shows being affected by merchandise is something to be expected for Transformers, given the origin of this franchise. Nowadays it isn't even half as bad as it used to be in Sunbow/Marvel days.
If someone absolutely can't stand toys being even rarely mentioned or affecting TF fiction… You miiight consider staying away from any work of fiction labeled as Transformers.
Because it won't go anywhere, if Hasbro can't get even the slightest advertisement for themselves they have no real need for keeping licenced stories around… and that's their franchise, to begin with. Free to do as they see fit.
GoLion
The thirteen primes nonsense is barely mentioned, and will hopefully get shown the door rather soon.
PredaconElder
The Thirteen Primes, the Enigma, the Colonies, Windblade and Combiner Wars were all due to their meddling.
Haywired
I don't think focusing heavily on old fans should be a paramount. This is what also got comic books to their current sorry state. Not accessible enough (and too reliant on old distribution models too). There should be continuity preserved to not discourage them, but cleaning the slate from time to time is not a bad idea.
I think you're overestimating how much your personal experience and people taking a word of a someone they know as a recommendation relates to practice. This may not be a baseline and both MTME and ExRiD don't skyrocket in readership. Looking at their sales, they're stable but nearly bolted in place…
I don't think Hasbro's meddling is that serious at all. Mostly it's just an occasional product placement or a phrase. Sometimes it's something legitimate silly like Slag's rename or Starscream's Armada body, but most of the time it's subtle.
Did any blank slate character eventually not placed on Lost Light ever seriously change anything by their absence? I don't think so.
SMOG
I don't think that IDW TF comics are being read by many kids, nor are they aimed at them. I think that's a moot point. And speaking as a former kid myself, I never felt that the product placement in the old marvel comics ever made me more inclined to the toys or the stories. The stories were the important part.
Weird. I bought the toys because they were cool toys, and I read the comics when they were cool comics. When either of those two things stopped being cool, I dropped them.
I mean, sure… a series can make you like a character that normally wouldn't stand out… but not because they're shoe-horned in for a disposable plot-point, but instead because they are meaningfully part of the story. I can tell you… I seriously doubt Hasbro was pushing Ratbat very hard, but the fact that he ruled the Decepticons for a year or so made me better inclined towards him.
When I used the term "reboots/retcons/rebranding/revision" etc above, I think that encompasses the full range of attempts to reset a series to make it more 'accessible'. What Marvel's done recently has elicited debates over whether it 'counts' as a reboot, but I think that misses the point. Whether or not it's a full reboot, it still achieves the same function (along with the same issues). It creates a brief flare of interest… and meanwhile tons of oldschool fans throw up their hands and say "why do I even bother anymore?" and stop caring about comics.
I think you're overstating it… you're taking a 'common sense' approach, and enshrining it as fact. I would have thought the same thing… but look at the growth of MTMTE in its first few years… as someone who has tried to hook people on that series, I can tell you… you can't just dive in as a Transformers neonate. That series is built on a metric TON of old business. And yet… not a show-stopper. People dove into it. People who weren't Transformers fans, or even comics fans, joined in, and became MTMTE hardcases. They combed TFwiki, asked questions here on the boards, and even went back and bought the old IDW trades and collections to get context (something that wouldn't be necessary if you really embraced the 'fresh start' approach).
So I'm not sure I agree with you on this. What you're saying sounds 'sensible'… but I don't think it's actually true.
zmog
Haywired
This is happening to DC because they mutilated their continuity too much. They had Nu52, then the Conevrgence, then they will do yet another one reset.
They don't gain new readers fast enough, but they are losing old readers because a total reset makes them no longer interested in characters. Is there any point in following any story when everything you read is going to be invalidated anyway?
GoLion
Long term? No, it doesn't. The big two get a slight bump (which is a good thing for investors to see) then the numbers go right back down, or get even worse. It's currently happening to DC, hence the next "HUGE MEGA EVENT" that's just around the corner.
Comics, unfortunately, are dying a slow death. I could argue some unpopular opinions on why this is happening, but I won't as I don't want to offend, but they're going to be going away eventually.
Haywired
It works for the Big Two, though.
Besides, it's not about totally rebooting old continuity (unlike DC, Marvel's avoiding reboots, their first one since the long time are the new Secret Wars and even this one was a rather soft reboot), but about halting the continuity once in a while and moving past events to the archive so they're still there, but new readers don't need to know them.
Having to read through older issues to understand in details what and why is happening can be a show-stopper for newer readers who just want a casual read with little commitment for a while before they can decide if they're sticking with the book, or not.
GoLion
You're right, the term slag -in your neck of the woods- is a completely derisive and inappropriate word. It still doesn't make the way the character's name was changed in the book any less cringe worthy (The name slug stinks anyway). Anything would have been better than the schlocky way it was changed in the book.
Hell, Slag just deciding to change his name to Slug "cuz he felt like it, derp" would have been better.
Smog, I don't disagree with this sentiment for us, the man-children that buy this stuff, but we have to consider that the kids might still want to see their toys included in the books (at the expense of the plot).
I can attest to buying the G1 and G2 comics as a kid and buying some of the toys I bought because they showed up in said comics.