iTunes has just uploaded a three page preview for issue #47 of More Than Meets The Eye! Coming off a very impressive #46 issue, MTMTE looks to continue its excellent stretch as we head closer to issue #50, which in today’s comic book world is quite the achievement.
Enjoy the preview after the jump and share you thoughts in the discussion thread.
Autovolt 127
I feel the same about Swerve and Rewind, they come off as grown up, Tailgate just has a younger baby feeling due to his lack of experiences.
and as with Ravage, nobody on the Lost Light really sees him as a person but more as cat.
I agree that is great, I mean most Transformers fiction isn't so much bad per say but more their isn't much to really talk about in terms of themes and authorial intent.
SMOG
Yup… they are rich with subtext.
zmog
Shepard Prime
I just want to throw it out there that isn't it nice that Roberts has crafted a story/stories that would give us this much thought about the happenings of our favorite robots in disguise to inspire such conversation?
SMOG
Real life adult males do not normally have nearly 2:1 size differential… nor do even hetero couples, for that matter.
I certainly identified CD/RW as a coded "gay couple" early on, even though "gay" has no meaning for Transformers… but I'm saying that the presence of one subtext doesn't displace or occlude any other subtexts that might also be there. I'm just making the observation that the significantly "small person" is absolutely a universal point of reference for children in all human societies. If you look down the street, and see a 6' person walking with a 3.5' person, you are not going to think "gay couple" or "midget" first. Your first association will be "child" almost certainly. It's not worth arguing for the possibilities for exceptions, because the overarching association is already written so indelibly on our cultural programming.
In Transformers we have a species that has a much wider range of biodiversity, so size and shape is much more variable… however, that doesn't mean that we don't tend to project our human expectations on them regardless (see also the knee-jerk typing of fembots and male-coded TFs). We can process these images through the finer details, and our knowledge of the fiction, but connotatively, subconsciously, and symbolically, the other associations are still present, and can exert weight on our perceptions in subtle (or not so subtle) ways. That's all.
No, I agree with you there… which is why I've said that I'm not making an accusation or a firm point about intention here. I'm merely noting that the subtext absolutely exists, and depending on how these stories play out, that association will either be reduced… or grow heavier.
However, I also think that Roberts is someone who is relatively savvy, and is increasingly conscious of his audience and the fan cultures. I don't think it's productive to see the work of creators necessarily emerging in a pristine artistic vacuum either. Writers develop ideas within their surroundings, and are subject to influences and relations between their work and the greater cultural milieu at large. This is especially the case in a serial medium, where the work develops in tandem with audience reception.
"Caving" is a troublesome expression, because it involves a value judgment… some sort of identitary failure as "bad feminists" or whatever. Are butch-femme relationships re-enacting and reinforcing so-called "heteronormative" binary standards? Yes, certainly… this is because we're all products of the society that shapes us in some way. The very existence of "butch" and "femme" as concepts derives from a heteronormative binary.
But, is that necessarily a problem… something that must be criticized? Not really. We all act out our various societal roles based on our exposure to them, and how they match our own inner directives (as well as rebelling, subverting, and "remixing" traditional roles). We rarely create our own personal identities "whole cloth"; there's always an element if imitation and pastiche. My feeling is that we can be critically aware of how we act out our roles… it's healthy to be aware of the processes involved… but without actually needing to condemn everything, or draw hard, proscriptive, ideological battle lines.
In other words, I totally agree with you on the guts of the matter… though my response is not "let's not talk about it", but rather "let's talk about it a lot… but without all the rhetoric and value judgements"
It's really not that subjective… I'm hardly the only person to have made mention of it in passing. Tailgate is not an eroticized ephebe, obviously; however, he definitely has been coded as a child in very direct ways, and while largely the relationship between he and Cyclonus has been child/guardian*, there have been questions of whether this is also enmeshed with romantic vibes (which would feel weird, even if technically, among Transformers there would be nothing "wrong" about it). This undertone has become correspondingly stronger since the intercession of Getaway and his creepiness, pushing Cyclonus more into the jilted partner role. After all, up till now, Cyclonus' response to the situation has not been "protective parental figure"… but rather "repressed, jealous suitor" … so it's not neat and tidy, as Roberts pointed out.
( *also, just worth mentioning that according to the classical model of pederasty, the notion of a child/mentor relationship is not incompatible with romantic/sexual relations, but in fact mostly dependent on it. This aspect of guardianship/mentorship is a major component of MBL propaganda today… seeing the older male as a protective, nurturing figure, who 'initiates' the younger. So this tension in the Cyke/TG pairing between protective/romantic doesn't dispel the spectre of pederasty at all, unfortunately. )
Sorry to drag on about it. It's an interesting (if disturbing) subject, and I think that there is a tendency to willfully look away from it because it's unpleasant to consider. However, I think it's worth making the observation… even if we're not necessarily at a point where we should raise any alarms. I'm pointing to it simply because it's there, not because it's something that we need to make a big deal about at the moment.
So we don't have to keep discussing it… it's more of a "I guess we'll wait and see" kind of thing.
zmog
Rael
Since I didn't make that association at all with Rewind (and as someone exposed to way more than her fair share of BL manga, no less), I guess I'm just a bit at a loss. Not saying it might not be common for many people, but it's weird to hear it's "overwhelming" when you've haven't personally experienced it. I always just associated them more with real life gay couples with a height difference.
It's only when size is packaged with facial and body proportions, facial expressions, body language, personality, and/or interpersonal interaction that I get the impression of young/childlike (and Tailgate definitely hits a lot more of those cues). I think that's why when artists want to go for cutesy and childlike, the standard is reduced size plus big eyes plus big head; reduced size doesn't do the trick on its own.
Fanartists may have fun employing the BL tropes in their work, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they receive the same impression from canon; I think the lack of portrayals of Rewind as childlike or excessively "uke" in fanfiction (where more emphasis is placed on accurate portrayal vs. what's fun) is pretty telling. Regardless, I definitely don't think creators or their work bear responsibility for fans going "It's fun to draw them this way!"
["Heteronormative subtext" in queer relationships (even fictional) is something I personally like to avoid discussion of–just because of that loose connection to variations on "Lesbians in butch/femme relationships are still caving to heteronormative societal pressure!", which if I never hear that again it'll be too soon. :|]
I agree that Tailgate is "tread carefully" territory, but the argument that there are shotacon undercurrents beyond him throws me for a loop. I definitely get that you weren't making accusations, but I also think that the existence of that particular "awkwardness" is more subjective than you're making it out to be. Agree to disagree, I guess.
SMOG
Yeah, I think we all agree on this. Of course, stories work on more than just the most literal levels. There are symbolic or connotative dimensions as well.
That's absolutely one element of the relationship… but there are other aspects as well, that have been hinted at. I agree with Roberts' comments that there's not just one "neat" explanation… that we're supposed to read different things into these relationships. Because they are not exactly like human relationships, the range of meaning and possibility of communicating different ideas is greater. This is what I've been saying about the anthropomorphism of TFs for a while now… as soon as you "humanize" them to the degree that we can expect them to interact exactly the same way humans do, they lose a lot of thise energy and possibility.
Yup. Historically in my social circle, I was always the guy who "gives everyone a chance"… which means I ended up making good friends with a lot of people who were otherwise "uncool". Of course, that also means I end up with a lot of friends who might also just be annoying as hell. You win some, you lose some.
Yeah, I agree. I think that writers often want to play on all the "kitty" tropes that appeal to people, but when you're also saying he's not a kitty, it can get a bit odd. However, arguably Ravage still has most of the human personality traits that we project onto cats… he's proud, independent, choosy about who touches him, etc…
zmog
Murasame
I only think of Tailgate as more child-like in the sense he lacks the experience, because of being deactivated so long. In a sense Transformers basically are "adults" when they go online, because they are robots. What makes them more "mature" is their experience. The rest is their programming. They might be sentient, but they are also programmed. Just like we basically program ourselves by experience, they do as well. Of course there programming is less restrictive than on things we know, because they are sentient. Some concepts just don't apply to them. Although I thought of a moment of this old pervy man from family guy, when I saw that panel, but that just doesn't work like that. Tailgate is not a child. He might be comparable to something like a child, but isn't. Still there is something creepy going on, because he tries to get him away from Cyclonus. And the thing between Cyclonus and Tailgate I interpret somewhere in between a fatherly figure to Tailgate and best buddies, because they are from the same era and Cyclonus started to look out for Tailgate. It started a bit antagonistically, because Cyclonus is more of a warrior, but he's also not stupid and when he came to understand their relationship, slowly something of a friendship began. I had similar experiences, where I deemed a person annoying and did not know what to do with that person, but by being somehow forced to see them regularly you start to really see the person, understanding it and ultimately sometimes even finding sides that you like about that person, although there are so many differences. Of course there were also other examples where you started to even hate the person more than before
Although it would be lame, I would kind of like if Getaway gets redeemed later on, because he's one of my favorite toys and I would hate to hate him. But currently he's not one of the sympathetic kind
Others like Swerve and Rewind don't appear to me childlike. They are just small. And even Ravage appears more like a person. That's what I find strange when he's depicted to be like a pet sometimes who get's petted by other characters.
SMOG
All of these arguments can be made, but the overwhelming visual and subconscious association with a character that small and lean hanging out with his big buddy is not "oh, he's a midget/dwarf"… his frame recalls much more a 10-year-old boy. Moreover, very similar size differentials are employed in the subset of yaoi manga that pairs extremely youthful-looking boys with rangier, more mature lovers, and these tropes are extremely common in fan art devoted to the pair.*
* It is often understood that yaoi manga is oriented more to a female audience, who tend to personally identify more with the smaller, daintier male partner… so in terms of its core audience, the pedo elements are less overt, and in spite of being a "queer" genre, it still affirms a heteronormative standard by way of subtext and power differentials in the relationships. Of course, what this says about the somewhat infantilizing treatment of women in much of anime culture is a whole other kettle of fish…
Of course, size differentials have always been an element of Transformers, and of course Rewind is no child in terms of his personality or role in the relationship. He is quite different from Tailgate, who recalls a young child not just in his rolypoly form, but his behaviours as well. This is why I say that the genre setting of Transformers provides a sort of deflection for these concerns… but at the same time, I think the subtext remains.
It would be less apparent if there weren't two prominent, quasi-romantic big/small queer-coded relationships at the core of MTMTE, one featuring a strongly child-coded character. Particularly in the case of two characters we read as "male", the size differentials really do connote childlikeness in the broadest terms, more than the exceptions… after all, the 'small=childlike' response is pretty much one of the most basic, primal, deeply ingrained, universal human semiotic codes there is.
To reiterate, I'm not making an accusation here… just noting that there is an awkwardness that has been lingering in the air. The events of the next issue may shift connotations more in one way or the other, so I guess we'll see how it plays out.
I tend to roll that way too… though dating back to G1, it's still hard not to read some of those traits in that way… the way the minibot toys had a simplified "toy" aesthetic, and on the G1 cartoon, their drawn proportions were definitely more childlike. Guys like Bumblebee and Cliffjumper often came off looking a bit childish, but there were always characters like Windcharger or Brawn or Beachcomber who evinced more "mature" personalities to balance it the other way.
And like the beast-themed TFs, just because we tend to see them as "pets" in a knee-jerk way, doesn't mean they're actually "animals" (although that's largely how they were treated on the cartoon). So yeah, I'm still with you on that.
zmog
Autovolt 127
yeah, i've heard enough of Tockar's range so i pretty much picture what a lighter Ravage sounds like.
Yeah Roberts keep inadvertently writes himself in to a corner like this. Hopefully this time people can be patient and not jump to conclusions with the abliest thing like the last couple of issues.
WilyMech
I think it is pretty much established Getaway is a creep.
Seeaich
I think that is a relevant point, Rael, I initially found the prominence of relationships which where the pairing was a larger, stronger robot with a smaller, weaker one to me typified Roberts writing leaning towards the stereotypical view of heterosexual relationships (the fairer sex, etc.) especially prior to the proper introduction of fembots into IDW continuity. I thought it a bit of clever-but-a-littl-mealy-mouthed way to kind of not 'Go Full Homo' as it were.
Subsequent reveals of other conjunxes proved me wrong there, of course.
Rael
Apologies, going off slightly on a tangent here, but I think it's still relevant.
I don't know that I'd call Rewind "childlike"; he is small, but so are human adults with dwarfism, etc., and they're by not children by any means. Yes, there's the standard cultural equivalency of "small" with "young"–and I might've thought Roberts meant to evoke that with Rewind and Swerve if he'd been creating the characters from scratch–but with these characters having originated as mini-bots/cassettes in G1, I don't really think that was his intention. (On a similar note, see Ravage's response to being treated like an animal by Nautica.)
Some of fandom does definitely tend to disproportionately infantilize mini-bots, but others (including myself) express distaste for that trend for the above reason.
So yeah, many may hold the view that "small means child," but I don't consider that a view that requires treading carefully to accommodate, as there are tons of exceptions in reality. I fully admit that Tailgate's situation in particular is a lot more complicated than Rewind's, though.
Seeaich
Thank you for answering, zmog, I dunno what it says about me but that was my first thought, then I thought perhaps that was too cynical a first thought which is why I asked rather than just assume. Appreciate the clarification.
Spumoni Dingo
Maybe Getaway had friends on Kimia? That seems to be the main offense people always bring up with Cyclonus. Considering Getaway's whole evasiveness aspect of his personality, I can see him taking some weird, complicated, roundabout passive aggressive way to get back at Cyclonus.
SMOG
Sorry, yeah… it's a short form for "man/boy love" (the MBL part of NAMBLA)… basically a pedophilic subsection that often attempts to legitimize an obsession with barely pubescent boys by invoking classical philosophical ideals (ah, those ancient Greeks) and "challenging societal standards".
I've used the term "Platonic love" to describe Roberts' concept of the Conjux Endura. Though some people misunderstand the term "Platonic" and use it too generally, its original and technical meaning is a love based on a higher intellectual, spiritual, and emotional plane, that is unsullied by the body. It actually works very well for Cybertronians in the ideal sense. Of course, the problematic aspect is that in practice, those old classical ideals also sort of reinforced a culture of pederasty as well.
I once had an elderly prof for a grad level queer cinema seminar who was trying to make the case for MBL… very uncomfortable situation, but it was nonetheless interesting to see the rhetorical, historical, and intellectual attempts to rationalize what was still essentially child abuse.
I'm not calling Roberts a pedo… but I am saying that some of the romantic subtexts in MTMTE definitely carry a tacit frisson of MBL… which is only superficially protected by the conceit of the "asexual immortal alien robots" angle… and small details like tiny, childlike Rewind actually being one of the older characters on the Lost Light (technically, Tailgate also). Also, in fairness to Roberts, this is not helped by the flavour of manga/yaoi fan-art that has sprouted up around MTMTE's fandom online (where the big/adult x small/boyish romantic contrast is often played up).
All of which is to say that I think Roberts needs to tread carefully around this scenario. Guess we'll find out where he's taking it soon enough…
I think that romance is often a part of adventure. And of course, romance does not have to be about physical intimacy (especially in this case). I liked the idea that Transformers might have a cybertronian romantic cognate that reflected their different kind of culture and biology… though I DO feel like it has become a bit too commonplace overall. I liked the initial implication that these types of relationships were actually very rare, and lately it feels like IDW has been making a show of pointing to them whenever they get the chance.
I agree, a lot of this discussion rides on assumptions we are making based on the various cues Roberts has provided to us. I don't think it's wrong to work on these assumptions, since for the most part, I feel that they have been encouraged by the author… not to "trick" us, but just to get us thinking about stuff. And the fact that we don't know anything really for sure is what keeps us waiting to see what happens next.
So yeah, it's probably going to be interesting, either way.
Glad to hear it! 22 years with my partner now. I totally get it too. Sexual relations are obviously a big factor in how human society operates, but it always gets me when people can't understand how sex and romantic love are not codependent things. I don't think it's necessarily something you only figure out when you're older, but being in a long-term relationship does help you understand it.
Yeah, these are good points to remember. Everything we know about Getaway pretty much comes from… Getaway… hm.
For all we know, he could be Tyrest's best buddy. Or a Con. Or an agent of the Tentacle Monoformer Empire of Cyberutopia for that matter.
Or he might just be a creep.
zmog
Rael
Have we actually received payoff on the "Cyclonus is Key" promotional art yet? (Sometimes it's hard to decide what counts, and we only just got payoff for Swerve's.)
Mort
Another theory I've come across is that Getaway is actually targeting Cyclonus (for reasons) and not Tailgate.
WilyMech
We know who is Cyclonus more than Getaway. For all we know Getaway could had been working for Tyrest most part of season 1 when Skids join Lost Light crew. Part me wonders why Getaway was with Tyrest and is still alive. After the test for the kill switch it makes more sense to off the MTO mech than have him around. Getaway could easily broken out of any prison but he did not. Only I came up is Getaway is still on a mission and working for someone. It just bunch of theories. I think Getaway wanted to be on Luna 1 with Tyrest and his crew because there was plenty of time for Getaway to escape.
Nocturne
Yeah, for all we know Getaway could have done something SO BAD that Skid's hatred for him is strong enough to withstand the memory wipe, if a little muted.
Mort
Well, the thing is that Skids doesn't actually remember him at all. He only had a vague memory of his name. Everything else we know comes from Getaway.